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MG TD TF 1500 - 5 speed Conversion

Gentlemen: I go to the States ( from Calgary) at the end of the week to pick up a 54 TF that I have bought, along with a bucket load of spare parts. The unit is sound but needs a total restoration, that I plan to do over the next couple or three years. I have most of the manuals that I need or they are on their way to me.
One of the things that I plan on doing with the power train is to change it to the 5 speed conversion and researching this shows that Moss has it, but only as a complete kit that includes the Ford Sierra Type 9 five speed gearbox, along with the bell housing etc; all as a completed unit. So finally to my question! Do any of the listers, here, know of North American sources of 1) the conversion kit WITHOUT the gearbox?(Such as they sell in the UK) and 2) a source of the type 9 gearbox all by itself?
Thanks RodM
Rod Murray

You could try Quantum Mechanics. John Esposito appears to service and sell these units.

John Esposito
john@quantumechanics.com
http://www.quantumechanics.com

505 Wheeler Road
Monroe, CT 06468

I'm aware of Quantum, but have never done business with them.

Larry
Larry Shoer

You will not find, at least easily, a Ford 9 gearbox in NA. They were fitted to the Ford Sierra in thw UK but the version sold in Canada was called Merkur and came with an automatic as I remember. The Moss conversion is made by Hi Gear Engineering in the UK. They work well. Email me off this BBS for details. Terry
Terry O'Brien

Just noticed my email is way out of date. Should be hamptons8@shaw.ca
Terry O'Brien

Gentlemen:
Thank you:

It does appear that there are a couple of locations that the gearboxes and "kits" are available from in the States giving me the alternatives I needed.
Thanks
Rod Murray
Rod Murray

Just a question that is not intended to be a smart-a but why the 5 speed. It is far cheaper to put in a 4.3 or 4.1 rear end and you dont have to modify anything. The gear box on the td and tf are very strong and work well. I have a 4,1 on my TD and it is fine at highway speeds. On top of that you cant tell anything was done to the car. again not trying to be a smarty
TRM Maine

Hey Rod,

As Terry has indicated, Hi-Gear has done all the work on the TD/TYF 5-speed conversion. Its very complete and I have driven one, and the all-synchro is worth the price alone. Its a very slick kit. For more info, see http://www.hi-gearengineering.co.uk/frames.htm

However you should be aware of one major drawback. The Ford Type 9 gearbox requires re-engineering the TD/TF crossmember and in doing do, moves the entire engine forward about 5 cms. The kit includes a specially-machined hub to replace the standard fan/water pump pully, to give clearance of the standard fan, to the rad.

I'm sure that Hi-Gear will sell you the kit sans gearbox. But be carefull. The Ford Mercur that uses a similar box, and that was exported to North America, is not the same gearbox as used in the UK and Europe, and won't fit the kit. This was told to me personally by the owner of Hi-Gear and developer of the kit Trevor ... (forget his last name), so take care.

A much better kit is produced by Steve Neal of Sky Hook Engineering in Maine. The problem here is that it uses the Datsun 210 gearbox (note:- NOT the 210B), and these gearboxes are scarce of hen's teeth. This kit bolts right in, and the installation can be reversed if you decide to sell your car w/o the 5-speed.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

... I stand corrected. The engine movement is 10 mm, not 5 cms. Sorry abt that.

Also, I note that Hi-Gear sell the kit w/o the gearbox and price is around £900.

Don't take a chance. Buy the gearbox from Hi-Gear.

Gord Clark
Gordon A. Clark

Re TRM Maine question.
My desire is to get the cruise RPM's into the 3000 range with a speed of between 60 @ 70mph. This is because the 3000rpm give about a 2500ft/min travel for the pistons on this stroke of an engine. If you cruise at 4000rpm to achieve the same 60 to 70mph you do three things 1) increase the ft/min travel that 2) increases heat that 3) thins the oil- all of them now contributing to shortening the life of the engine.
If the the 4.1/4.3 lowers the RPM to "around" the 3000 to get the 60 to 70 mph then I certainly would be interested in that solution?
Regards

Rod Murray
Rod Murray

Re: the TRM question/observation!
Sorry! That should read about 2500Ft/Sec.... Not Min.

Regards
Rod Murray
Rod Murray

Rod:

A 4.3 MGB rear end will give you 51-52 MPH at 3000 RPM with the stock gearbox. I'm adding a Skyhook 5 speed to my 4.3 setup.

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

Although I'm not adding the 5spd mod, even with the 4.3, I find i would like one more gear... I'm sure the engine can handle a final drive below 1:1....
I agree, I hate cruising at 4000 rpm.... 34,35 is when it all seems so smooth and 'safe'!
gblawson(gordon)

Larry Karpman and I are doing the same mods. I am buying the Sky Hook Kit and I already have installed a set of 4.3 gears. I am really looking forward to next year's driving season.
Jim Merz

Hi,

There have been more than one discussion about originality of our MG's, and everybody has got to do what he wants to do with his car.

I fitted a 4.3 MGA rear axle and gained the following:

a. cruising at 100 kmph at 4000 rpm
b. wire wheel hubs
c. larger brakes
d. the rear of the car is lower than original
which I like.
e. only use of MG parts.

If you want to know how its done, mail me at erik*safetyfast.nl (@ for *)

Erik

Erik vanHardeveld

Hi All:
Given the 60/70 mph highway speeds that we have in Alberta, even through the center of Calgary (on the Deerfoot) a continuos 4000 rpm is just not something that I want to subject our aging metal too. Europe has a diffent set of driving conditions! Although when I was there last year they sure are catching up fast.
Gordon/Jim: I'm going to check out the Skyhook 5 speed kit as that does seem to be a very favourable alternative:)

Regards
Rod
Rod Murray

Folks:
Do you know who sells the Skyhook kit? They don't seem to have a website?
Regards
Rod
Rod Murray

Here are some figures on the 4.1 rear end. at at 3800 RPMs one is doing approx 66.6 mph and at 4000 one is doing 70.3 Them little engines were meant to run at high RPMs. I admit that the 5:12 was a little bit to much as to attain modern speeds one had to run them almost f1at out and that too scared me. Mine runs like a kitten at 38-4000 with the 4.1
TRM Maine

Rod, as far as I know, there is no website for Skyhook Engineering. Steve Neal sells the ktis via word of mouth and can be reached at 207-721-0166. His email address is skyhook@suscom-maine.com with his shop in Brunswick, ME.
Jim Merz

Erik, can you provide details or pictures of how you lowered the rear end of your TD? It has been one of my "someday projects". I was unable to decode your email address.
Thanks.
Jim Merz

I get about the same figures as TRM with the Skyhook 5 speed and the stock 4.875 rear end. 65 mph at 3700 rpm and 70 at 4000. Up some of the grades on Highway One (12% in spots if I remember correctly) is not the place for a 4.1 rear end unless you add some more ponies.

LaVerne
LED DOWNEY

Rod,

For the Ford Type 9 gearbox, you can calculate your effective final drive by multiplying you cwp by by .82 (same as MGB overdrive).

For more info, see:- http://www.ttalk.info/gearbox_options.htm

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

Jim: Thanks for the Email address! I've left Steve an enquiry.
Gord: Thanks for the site link.

I'm now leaving to go get the car and will be gone for 2 weeks:) Regards
To all!

Rod Murray
Rod Murray

What the gearbox doesn't change is the power curve of the XPAG engine,

reducing the RPM;s has the effect of lowering the available HP at a given road speed. The HP required to overcome the air resistance doesn't change, nor does the power needed for hills,etc. at some point reducing the effective finial drive ratio becomes a loosing proposition.

The 4.3 rear end or a 4 speed ( ~.4.24) are a good compromise for most 1250 engines. This gives about the same RPM at 65 MPH.
Combining both gives an effective drive ratio of 3.44, way too low for the XPAG under normal driving.

You would be better off installing a 4,1, or a 3.9 (early MGB).

These small displacement engines were designed to run at 4000 to 5500 RPM for power, in spite of your nerves conditiond by V8's designed to run at 2500 RPM.

I have a Stage 2 tuned TF 1500 (74 HP at 5000 RPM) and a 4.1 rear end.
It handles expressway speeds (70-75 MPH) for long periods quite well at under 4500 RPM, 65 MPH at 3800 RPM, and I can outrun most MGB;s in the North Georgia Mountains as lon as I keep the RPM;s above 2200.

Remember, your stock XPAG is only producing abour 27 HP at 3000 RPM and you need at least 30 HP to overcome the wind at 75 MPH






Don Harmer

I live in the mountains and have a 4.3 gear in my TD. I have had the opportunity of running the XPAG block which is modified to TF specs [carbs, head, distr. and cam], as well as an XPEG block with a Laystal head. The small block, although with low miles, can not pull the car up the long grades that I drive in my area without a lot of gear changes. The larger block has the torque to climb the same grades without having to shift. The difference between the two is quite amazing. Both motors seem quite comfortable at 4000 rpm so the major difference is in the hill climbing stength which is important to me.
George Raham
TD 4224
G. L. Raham

Not only is the 1500 block larger in terms of cubic inches but you say it has a Laystal head. The literature published at the time said that that head increased the power by 30%. I suspect that was a little exaggerated but even at a 25% percent increase would make a significant difference. Maybe someday I'll go for a Laystal head.
Cheers,

Bob
R. K. (Bob) Jeffers

This thread was discussed between 01/07/2008 and 06/07/2008

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